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Old 09-12-2015, 03:30 PM   #41
boatshewsd2
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Default What Might've Been - If Ever Was...

True; we got only little more than a fleeting glimpse or two (Journey to Where's futuristic tableau; and, most notably, Another Time, Another Place)...

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A possible scenario for an Eagle replacement or development if Breakaway didn't happen:

Eventually nuclear fusion eradicates further nuclear waste generation, and the Eagle is relegated to Earth-Moon shuttle duties and lunar recon duties. It is a capable and versatile craft, but as it ages, there is a call for more specialized types of vehicles - purpose-built long range lunar shuttles with higher carrying capacity, and a series of medium range spacecraft for lunar duties (medium distance transport, recon, mapping, rescue, etc.)

So it turns out that the Eagle is actually replaced by two or three separate spacecraft.

PeteQ, I would love to have seen some episodes of S1999 dealing with events on Earth after the Moon's departure - if only Lew Grade hadn't insisted that the show had to be set anywhere but Earth!
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Old 12-12-2015, 09:47 PM   #42
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Just saw your PM - thank you! I'll see about putting something together...


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Those people doing the Space 2099 revamp weren't going to replace everything with CGI though. As for the galaxy being in a constant state of war we don't know yet if there's been peace for 40 odd years so maybe there wouldn't have been much need for advancements in technology.

And even if there was - maybe there's only so far you can go in updating your spaceship fleet anyway. How could a Star Destroyer be really improved? You could only make it more powerful and bigger. What could you do with fighters? Make them more powerful and bigger too? And why would anyone want to lose the distinctive spaceships like the X Wings and Tie Fighters? What could they be replaced with?

Some generic looking spaceships that look as if they've come from any other space movie? The Tie Fighters and X Wings will obviously be more advanced anyway and there could be other types like the Tie Interceptor which wasn't in the first 2 films so it's not as if the ships don't get more advanced.

I don't actually think the designs from the 60s and 70s film and tv will ever be bettered anyway as that was probably when all the distinctive craft [ like the Eagles ] were created.
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Old 15-12-2015, 11:56 PM   #43
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Just saw your PM - thank you! I'll see about putting something together...


Thanks! I'll keep a look out for it!
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Old 16-12-2015, 01:28 AM   #44
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Hello Eagle Transport Forum. Sorry I haven't been on in awhile, but I just want to thank the Eagle Transport Forum for the nice birthday wishes. Thank you very much, and I want to wish everyone on the Eagle Transport Forum a very Merry Christmas, and a very Happy New Year. Jason Broadway.
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Old 16-12-2015, 01:43 AM   #45
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Roger that.

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Thanks! I'll keep a look out for it!
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Old 21-12-2015, 08:19 AM   #46
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Hi everyone!
I guess the reboot Space 2099 is dead and only waits for an official announcement.
I had posted on that website for awhile.

But first, the new Eagle redesign is good. The engines look like they could employ some kind of thrust reverser, common in modern commercial aircraft. A spacecraft as capable as the Eagle should be able to slow down without turning the whole craft around so the engines point in the direction of flight to slow down.

I had played with the Super Eagle. My concept was to address braking, atmospheric operations, getting into and out of the hyperspace the moon was in, and the very small payload capacity of the Eagle.

So I thought of doubling the size of the craft in every dimension to create something with a payload of a large commercial jet.

I measure images at a one millimeter to the foot scale and came up with 116 feet for length 24 feet width of pods and 19 feet width of frame with height of 12 feet for the pod and 2 feet height of spine. Unfortunately, I lack modelling and drawing skills so I did the best I could in my head and in doodling on paper and markings of the downloaded photos.

These dimensions are double to make a 232 feet long spacecraft with two deck level.
The inset cutout area in the CM is changes to a triangular window on each side and the CM lengthened and installed fore and aft.

The engines were mounted on the shoulders pods where the RCS thrusters are and they can rotate 360 degrees freedom in the vertical plane.

Fusion engines that were atmospheric safe that were five feet in diameter for the vertical thrusters(chemical doesn't cut it as fusion does) and eight feet in diameter for the main engines now become 10 and 16 feet diameter respectively. The eight fold increase in volume and four fold increase in the engine bell area allow an eight fold increase in thrust that supports the eight fold plus increase in mass.

The main engines can thrust in any direction, making the Super Eagle much more manueverable than it's predecessor.

The lengthened CMs at both ends are like some ferries that have engines and wheelhouse on each end so reversing is easier. The CMs accomodate the two pilots plus eight mission or payload specialists or passengers. The original intent of CMs being a lifeboat or a short range exploration/transport craft is restored along with the CM docking port entrance.

As was intended for the abortive Season Three, the landing gear retracts into the shoulder fuel pods which are also lengthened given rudimentary streamling. Instead of flat padding landing gear feet, I added crawler tracks which allow the SE to be able to taxi on the ground without firing up the vertical thrusters to move short distances on a planetary surface. I even went so far as to advocate telescoping landing gear to allow Thunderbird 2 style vehicle and cargo access from the service pod's for and aft ramp doors.

Two CMs allowed one to operate independently while the other provide command and control of the rest of the vehicle and retain a lifeboat capability.

It was fun figuring this all out even if nothing more comes of it.
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Old 21-12-2015, 10:30 PM   #47
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> A spacecraft as capable as the Eagle should be able to slow down without turning the whole craft around so the engines point in the direction of flight to slow down.

Why? A space vehicle only needs to rotate around its centre of mass to be able to direct its main thrust in any direction it requires. It is a wasteful design to have main thrusters pointing in every direction you might need - you only need main thrust in one direction at a time, the rest are just attitude thrusters.

Space travel isn't like flying - Star Wars and the rest get it wrong most of the time. - no need to bank in outer space! Only Babylon 5 did it right with their Starfury fighters accelerating on one vector then rotating themselves to be able to fire in any direction while maintaining the original direction of motion, just as Newton's Laws explain.
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Old 22-12-2015, 01:31 AM   #48
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In space you accelerate and decelerate with coasting in between using your main engines and so you are right and orbital mechanics plays a major role in how you operate your craft. Tilting main engines may come in handy in a gravity well however and having the lift engines employ thrust vectoring to augment or back up the main engines or having the main engines and lift engines thrusting together increase manuoverability and so I may be wrong but side mounted or shoulder mounted engines do allow for a faster application of main engine thrust for a sudden change change in thrust direction, useful for combat perhaps.

Babylon Five did indeed get it right though while other movies and shows just ignored the facts of life in space though Star Trek's propulsion system allowed the Enterprise to ignore celestial mechanics and still get it right.
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Old 22-12-2015, 12:59 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boldman View Post
> A spacecraft as capable as the Eagle should be able to slow down without turning the whole craft around so the engines point in the direction of flight to slow down.

Why? A space vehicle only needs to rotate around its centre of mass to be able to direct its main thrust in any direction it requires. It is a wasteful design to have main thrusters pointing in every direction you might need - you only need main thrust in one direction at a time, the rest are just attitude thrusters.

Space travel isn't like flying - Star Wars and the rest get it wrong most of the time. - no need to bank in outer space! Only Babylon 5 did it right with their Starfury fighters accelerating on one vector then rotating themselves to be able to fire in any direction while maintaining the original direction of motion, just as Newton's Laws explain.
Actually I also think the Gunstar in 'The Last Starfighter' also gets it pretty right regarding movement in space.
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Old 22-12-2015, 03:06 PM   #50
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I'll agree with the above comments regarding movement in space to a degree, but Sciquest2525 mentioned atmospheric flight as an essential design element.

Moreover, combating an enemy ship which is facing you, it would be unwise to rotate the craft through 180 degrees to flee. It would surely be better to have the enemy in plain sight and reverse thrust, leaving the target in plain sight, as weapons usually face forward.
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Old 22-12-2015, 04:59 PM   #51
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For combat you would generally try to avoid head-on engagement such as that.

Turning around and running away in the manner you suggest would be very time consuming, wasteful of energy (delta-V) and very dangerous. 1) You'd need to slow the vehicle to a stop (very vulnerable) 2) begin acceleration on the new vector from zero.

Space or non-atmospheric combat is all about controlling your vector and using your delta-V reserves wisely. if an enemy ship is facing you, evasion tactics would be to direct your vector perpendicular (in any direction) from his vector. That makes you a fast moving target across his sights. Once you've accelerated, you can spin on your own axis and start shooting at him with your forward firing weapons. You can use your secondary thrusters to adjust your vector - jig about if you wish.

Of course, sensible combat ship design would not ONLY have forward facing guns. They'd have turrets that give wider and varied arcs of fire. Your main weapon might be forward facing (eg you big particle accelerator or meson gun through the spine of your ship) but you'd have turrets allowing you to bring to bear your weapons no matter what the ship orientation.

Sigh, you can tell I used to play Traveller back in the day

As for the flying in atmospheres, the Eagle is a terrible in atmosphere vehicle, showing all the worst aspects of trying to fly a spacecraft into an atmosphere! The lack of aerodynamic surfaces means EVERYTHING has to be done via the engines, so that means operating the vertical thrusters to keep it airborn and the main engines to give it forward motion. Turning would be a very complex process as you'd need to keep rotating the vehicle on its axis with the thrusters while keeping the main engines pushing you forward. You'd be severely speed limited because the lack of aerodynamics would cause a huge amount of turbulence which would threaten to shake the vehicle apart.

That limitation alone means transitioning into or out of the atmosphere would be a very hazardous venture. Descending from orbital velocity means entering the atmosphere - albeit quite thin at those altitudes - at hypersonic speeds. The ship would need to bleed off that velocity as quickly as possible to avoid being blasted to pieces as the air at that speed behaves remarkably like a brick wall! Look at the heat shield on the Space Shuttle and what happened when one tile failed!

So ideally you want two vehicles - one that is aerodynamic which can enter and exit the atmosphere and then your non-atmospheric work horse which I could very well believe would look like an Eagle.

Just don't try to fly it into an atmosphere
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Old 23-12-2015, 01:02 AM   #52
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Points taken. Although atmospheric flight is a requirement operations in any kind of gravity well such as the airless moon would require constant use of lift engines to keep aloft. I hoped minimal streamlining would help atmospheric flight which would have to be subsonic as the Eagle or my Super Eagle either has no or a small amount of streamlining such as the shoulders losing their vertical forward surface and having sloping surfaces instead.

Of course, seeing that the Eagle could be provided with non physical force fields from Season One than S.E. could have that feature if they can be shaped to provide smoother airflow. David Weber used a similar concept in his book The Apocalypse Troll to allow the bad guys and the good guys from the future to reach hypersonic speeds in ships with no streamlining in the atmosphere.

However, in that case they made the mistake of pissing off some Aegis cruisers and destroyers which hurled SM-2s in a hurricane of fire at short range and the power drain to shields for controlling airflow had little reserve to withstand dozens of SM-2 130lbs. conventional warheads and so their shields failed and the atmosphere tore them apart.

You do need turreted weapons mounts. Fortunately, in the case of lasers, the beam director can be separate from beam generator so a reasonable sized turret for the director is possible while using a system of optical waveguides to connect the director to a large beam director. A proposed expeditionary support ship some years ago had three large laser beam generators using waveguides to connect five beam directors. So each beam generator can service two or more directors if the output is sufficent.

Missiles are one weapon that can turn after firing to the direction required to engage the enemy but can be shot down by countermissiles, deceived by decoys and jammers. The USN uses gunfire and countermissiles with decoys and jammers to deceive or destroy incoming antiship missiles while an anti torpedo torpedo is being developed and was tested recently for hard killing of wake homing torpedoes which cannot be decoyed by acoustic decoys or jammers. The Russian Navy has the Paket antitorpedo torpedo in service for several years.

Particle weapons may be less flexible unless they can also decouple the beam generator from the beam director.

A railgun would require guided projectiles to hit the target off boresight.

Sensors present their own problems but you are dealing with AESA radars, E.O./IIR as Eagles can generate gravity, shields could use controlled gravity fields together with whatever super materials science can come up with. Larry Niven in his recent Shipstar novel concluded that a practical sublight starship using a Bussard Ramscoop drive would need materials with 100,000 times the limit of chemical bonds of metals, ceramics, composites to survive the stresses of 12% of the speed of light or about 36.000 kilometers per second.

The only viable means of moving the moon is for our heroes to discover a propulsion system installed in the distant past by someone unknown or for a ship to show up capable to towing the moon into interstellar space. Such a system would have to be able to move the moon at substantial sublight velocities, say hundreds of kilometers per second as well as faster than light. Control might be a problem to make return to earth impossible. The S.E.s would have to have a means of getting into an FTL state for launching and landing on the moon or the moon would have to dropout of FTL(hyperspace or warp) to launch or recover Super Eagles.

As for Eagle dimensions, it looks like I have to correct my figures and allow for extended length fore and aft command modules. I do envision the interior of the spine having a piping and wiring access tunnel connecting the ship accessible by a non spaces suited crew member from any of a number of hatches located throughout the ship

David Weber's Mutineer's Moon novel had our moon destroyed and replaced by a huge starship which adopted the moon's outer surface as camoflauge until the day a luckless astronaut discovered the secret. That poor soul found himself crowned the CO of the planetoid vessel Dahak by a computer looking for a captain as the bad guys, after 100,000 or so years were coming and a warship needs a human commander and crew who were descendants of the original crew that mutinyed 50,000 years ago and were the ancestors of the human race.
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Old 23-12-2015, 08:06 AM   #53
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Great stuff
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Old 23-12-2015, 08:29 AM   #54
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Thanks!
Lifeboat Earth from many years ago had aliens fleeing an oncoming galactic core explosion offer to install an FTL drive on Earth in return for our survival skills helping them out.

The south pole had some of it's substance converted to antimatter and the resulting super rocked got the planet moving. When sufficient velocity was reached and humans were suitably protected, the aliens converted mother earth to tachyons and achieved one million times lightspeed. The process consumed a large chunk of earth's mass and that had to be dealth with. On arrival to a suitable planet in the Andromeda Galaxy, the ship downshifted to sublight and earth's surviving cities were used to transfer humans to their new home as earth was no longer habitable. The cities were given something to keep air and heat in and radiation out and were given propulsion systems good for one trip each. Upon arrival, humans spread out to make their new home habitable.

Moving Mars is a novel by Greg Bear, a hard science type where Mars had to escape the crushing weight of a tyrannical earth government and scientists found a way to move the planet to any desired location but they had to find a suitable star system quickly as Mars was unprotected from heat losses in space or cumulative radiation. The system was a jump type drive so they visited a few places before finding their new home system quickly.

Roger McBride Allen's Hunted Earth series had ancient mechanisms and their associated AI in the moon produce a wormhole and the earth found itself in a new star system with lots of other planets out there that had also been kidnapped. The series stopped at two books and the story was never completed.
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Old 27-12-2015, 10:59 AM   #55
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Personally I really like RAFE's redesign.
I can see how it's not going to appeal to some because it's different. While others won't like it because its to much like the original. Then there will always be the few who feel they could (or have) done it better.
And those points of view are all fine. They are also however, just that, points of view. (Just like mine.)
We are all fans of the shows, and the original designs. But it's important to try and seen what an artist is trying to bring to a project.
If back in the day, they had made models that looked like Rafe's design, and he had produced a redesign that looked like the original. Chances are you'd be saying the same things about his work.
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Old 28-12-2015, 10:50 AM   #56
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I like RAFE's designs also and I printed them out to have and keep and admire.
However, I think the Eagle is fundamentally flawed and rather than redesign the baseline Eagle which has limited payload capacity, I put forth my Super Eagle, which, like the USN's adoption of the Super Hornet F/A-18E/F/G to eventually replace the classic Hornet F/A-18A-D, resembles the original but adds needed capacity.

So, the S.E. is twice as large in every dimension as the classic Eagle which increases volume by a factor of eight and makes an eight fold volume/four fold area Service Pod or Mission Pod, if you will. You have two decks with eight times the deck area and payload carried.
The S.E.'s command module is lengthened for additional seating and has the originally planned but dropped, doors that mate with the docking tubes on Moonbase Alpha and specially equipped docking tube Eagles. There is one forward and one aft and the four engines are now mounted on the shoulders which are lengthened to allow a larger landing gear footprint to accomodate the eight fold weight increase and the increase from enlarging the CMs to avert the S.E. from sinking into the ground from too much weight per square foot of pad or crawler track landing/takeoff gear I propose.
This also allows the S.E. to taxi without using it's lift engines which would add wear on launch pads and scorch any other surface. Heat is a big problem for the new real world STOVL F-35Bs used by USMC and to be adopted by the RN/RAF by the end of the decade. Special treatments are needed for runways and carrier/LHD decks using F-35B in STOVL mode. The V-22 Osprey has a similar problem.
Engines mounted on the enlarged and lengthened shoulders can rotate 360 degreses in the vertical plane, much like the V-22's wingtip mounted engines can tilt up for helicopter mode and forward for airplane mode and to 85 degrees to allow backing up while in taxi mode. This allows thrust to be vectored in any degree of tilt for accelerating, deccelerating of for extra lift to augment the lift engines which have auxillary nozzles that allow forward and backward thrust so the lift engines can propel the S.E. and are not just limited to lifting thrust.
Engines are all fusion drives that are atmospheric safe and put out a thrust to weight ratio of at least 50:1 to allow reasonable acceleration/decceleration rates. Higher thrust ratios, choice of nuclear fusion reactions that have minimized radioactivity, atmospheric safe operation are all challenges as the real world state of the art is that after decades, we still do not have a fusion reactor that puts out more energy that is put into it to create a sustained reaction.
Right now, the only workable fusion drive is using the Orion designs that eject small nuclear bombs out behind them and use the energy from the blast to drive the craft and is mediated by double staged shock absorbers, very large shock absorbers that allow the pulsed nuclear blast to be smoothed out for the human crew and the avionics and life support gear.
Check out ProjectRHO.com as it is full of research on spaceflight with the math also and many beautiful illustrations for budding writers and game designers and just plain interested people like me.
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Old 03-01-2016, 12:29 PM   #57
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Here is dimensions of Eagles and their component parts:
The overall Eagle I measured off of fan drawings is 232MM which I halve to get an overall length of 116 feet.
Mission pod: 21.5'W by 12.0'H by 41.0'L
Forward Superstructure: 16.5'L by 19.0'W by 10.0'H
Aft Superstructure: 16.5'L by 19.0W by 10.0H
Main Engines Module: 19.0'L
Shoulders: 13.5L by 13.5'W by 10.0'H
Command Module: 20.5'L by 22.5'W by 13.0'H
Main Engine Diameter: 8.5'?
Lift Engine Diameter: 5.0'
Spine Height: 3'?
Overall Length: 116.0'
Overall Height: 15.0'
Overall Width: 21.5'
Superstructure Ground Clearance: 9.0'
w/ Mission Pod: 7.5'?
Overall Height from Static Ground Line to top of Spine: 22.5'
Some of my measurements are uncertain due to difficulties measuring w/ ruler on printouts of fan published drawings.

Super Eagle dimensions are double the above measurements before adding extra lengthening for Superstructure, CM, Mission Pod.
Overall 232' L by 43'W by 30'H
Eight fold increase in volume and mass, four fold increase in surface area, mass increase requires larger foot pads to handle extra mass 8X vs extra surface area 4X so pads need a doubling of surface area.
We don't want the S.E. sinking into the ground.
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