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Old 18-09-2014, 12:42 AM   #1
Purple Bob
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Default Top and Bottom Longerons

Hi Guys,
I'm just starting a scratch build 44" Eagle and I was wondering if somebody would be kind enough to tell me the exact length of the longerons on the Eagle spine, both top and bottom, for a 44" Studio Scale model (Eagle 1).

I know the overall length of a tightly assembled Eagle 1 is actually 43-1/8" But I'm trying to get an exact correct spine length so that I can match it up precisely with the various drawings and photograph references that I have.

Best Regards,
Purple Bob.
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Old 18-09-2014, 02:29 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by richardlamer View Post
There are many 44" Eagle builds on this site and you may want to do some prior research to see the approx. cost and parts you may need.
Thank you for the advice Richard and all of your helpful suggestions.... I am aware of the blueprints that are commercially available. I may not be using those though.

I do already know how much it will cost me to build it, as well. Much of the work I will be doing myself. I'll be CNC machining the Passenger pod from the G-Code CNC machine files kindly provided by Julian (Moonhugger) and hopefully he'll be releasing the code for the leg pods soon too... I'll also almost certainly turn my own engine bells. Although as you suggest I may well buy a Command Module.

It would help a lot though, if somebody could just answer the question I asked. With some accurate numbers. So I can do some photographic comparisons and comparisons with the other published info.

Many Thanks,
Purple Bob.
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Old 18-09-2014, 06:10 AM   #3
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It's actually a difficult question to answer Bob. David Sission extensively refurbished Eagle 1 to prevent it falling apart, I am sure he quoted the dimension you have. There then followed a debate about that very dimension with Chris Trice stating it was originally ¼" longer, they agreed to disagree IIRC.
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Old 18-09-2014, 11:30 AM   #4
Purple Bob
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Originally Posted by Captain Sci-Fi View Post
It's actually a difficult question to answer Bob. David Sission extensively refurbished Eagle 1 to prevent it falling apart, I am sure he quoted the dimension you have. There then followed a debate about that very dimension with Chris Trice stating it was originally ¼" longer, they agreed to disagree IIRC.
Thank you for your reply Bernie, I have indeed read what David wrote about his Eagle1 restoration. And can only agree with you.

But I what would like to know is what is the length "specifically" of the spine itself is, not the overall model length.

So perhaps somebody can tell me what lengths each of them says the spine should be?? and then I can figure out for myself from that what length I should go with.

The two numbers I really need are are as asked in the first post. The total length of the top and the bottom of the spine section itself.

Many Thanks,
Purple Bob.
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Old 18-09-2014, 09:32 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by richardlamer View Post
According to the plans mentioned above:
The Top is 25 and 3/16 in or 639
the bottom is 29 and 1/8 or 739
Many thanks for that Richard.... That is much appreciated. That is very spookily close to the dimension that a friend and I had arrived at from pure calculation and photographic measurement. So that has confirmed that the calculations we did are correct and we should be able to create many more accurate measurements by the same method and proportional to those.

Again Many Thanks,
Purple Bob.
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Old 28-10-2014, 01:11 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Purple Bob View Post
that has confirmed that the calculations we did are correct and we should be able to create many more accurate measurements by the same method and proportional to those.
Correction to that statement... after photographic analysis, using nearly 40 different photographs of eagle 1.... the numbers we got are...

bottom longeron= 29 and 1/8 inches
top longeron= 25 and 5/16 inches ....... (rather than 25 and 3/16)

We're using a new method, photographic analysis algorithm the we have created. It can interpret depth as well as lens focal length distortion and image projection curvature. But to fine tune it we needed some accurate numbers for comparison. Hence the longeron lengths. when you plug in the length of the bottom longeron, given a known distance from the model (only has to be close, does not have to be exact), it can work out the distortion and correctly project other dimensions to within 0.15 of a mm....

This is a complex algorithm. But we're now getting a percentage accuracy very close to correct on 99.4% of runs..... This means that it will be possible to create accurate plans in the future to very high accuracy even when the original model (or even real object) no longer exists or is inaccessible.

Should mean correct plans for any model are entirely possible.

Why start on that project.... simple... I'm building a 44" Eagle and wanted accurate plans without having to fork out a fortune for them.

Best Regards,
Purple Bob.
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Old 29-10-2014, 01:50 AM   #7
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Hello Richard,
Quote:
Originally Posted by richardlamer View Post
I think the blueprint are close enough I don't think 1/8 or 2mm (a few thick pencil lines, a few coats of paint or primer) worth fretting over.
WOW!! You must have some thick stubby pencils then.... 1/8" is actually approx 3.2mm not 2mm, that's quite a large amount. Certainly not the thickness of some coats of paint... which, by the way, are measured in microns.
[quote=richardlamer;389607]Nor do I believe anyone can build a spine (out of resin/brass/paper or anything) that will come out to that precision.[quote] I think you missed the point entirely... I wasn't talking about the accuracy of drawings or models even. I was mentioning the render accuracy of the point cloud generated by our photo interpretation algorithm. Which has some very serious commercial applications that have nothing to do with Eagles... Even though I've been using my own Eagle working drawings as a test bed for it.

As an a quick aside, I'm an engineer and I most certainly could build a spine to that accuracy if I wanted to. I wouldn't bother building to that accuracy, because the original models were only ever designed and built to visual accuracy and not to engineering accuracy..... the spine on Eagle 1 isn't even completely symmetrical on all axis. None of the leg pods is identical to any other leg pod, the beak is distorted and not symmetrical. To be blunt most replicas are significantly better built then the originals ever were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by richardlamer View Post
I don't mind paying for them. They are not a 'fortune' to buy and anyone venturing into building an accurate S1 Eagle should get them.
That's very nice for you... I'm sure they suit your purpose admirably. Personally, I do mind paying money for them. I'm on a budget and I don't recall saying that I was building a season 1 Eagle anywhere either.

I haven't seen them myself, so I can't comment on their accuracy. I'm sure they're a very nice set of drawings. But why you think I would want to pay good money out for something that I can produce myself from the freely available information published in drawings, dimensions and photographs, here and in other places, is beyond me.

In fact I proffer many more thanks to good guys on here like yourself….., and to David Sissons in particular for all the very generous help, advice, time taken, dimensions, details and photographs that have been given freely to the community when there was no obligation to do that, and when certainly in David's case the patience he shows with all the questions that have been fired at him is outstanding. Certainly for his generosity to other modellers Many Thanks!

As for my working drawings… they may at some point soon, also get given freely to anyone who wants them. Given that they are generated from data that was similarly given freely. And given that they have taken some four years of work, calculation and research to create I’m sure they’re no less valid than any other drawings out there. They don't contain specific season one shelf detail and I doubt they ever will, because it doesn't really interest me much. But they do contain accurate dimensions and construction details that I needed for reference myself.

Best Regards,
Purple Bob.
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Old 29-10-2014, 02:20 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by richardlamer View Post
I don't think it can be made of brass to that level of accuracy with or without the 3.2mm in the plan or not.
LOL You're talking to someone who has built race car engines to a precision of + - 10 Microns or less.... So I can assure you that I could indeed build a spine to just thousandths of an inch accuracy. Like I said though I wouldn't ever bother to do that, because as you point out it wouldn't be worth bothering to do it.

And I'm sure you're absolutely right, that I'm just ending up replicating the work that has already been done. But hey, I'm having fun with it, and isn't that the whole point. I'd much rather have derived my own numbers, before I start building the actual physical model. The result is much more satisfying. On top of which, it's much easier and cheaper to correct any errors in the computer than it is to scrap real model parts.




Quote:
Originally Posted by richardlamer View Post
If you're making detailed blueprints from scratch and are offering them for free, put me down for a set. I'd love to make the E2 although it uses far too many model kits parts.
With the greatest of pleasure Richard. Once I get them completed I'll make them openly available. I think it's more likely to be of Eagle 1 as it is today rather than in Season 1, because that's my favourite of them... and probably not Eagle 2, because it has so many differences.

I'm currently working it up in 3D CAD to see that all the parts fit together properly and look right in comparison to the published photographs. correcting errors as I go. But it's a long slow process.

Best Regards,
Purple Bob.
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Old 30-10-2014, 01:19 PM   #9
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Here's a progress picture on the 3D layup... It seems to be matching the reference photographs closely enough




Best Regards,
Purple Bob.
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Old 30-10-2014, 09:44 PM   #10
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Looks good, Purple Bob
Cheers Richard... : It could do with its own thread I suppose, now it's going in the direction it is.. rather than just being my working drawings.

Best Regards,
Purple Bob.
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:38 PM   #11
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P.Bob
I have just noticed this thread. I see I have a name check in it.
Feel free to use the CNC code...
I will let everyone have the code for the leg pods (but some of the simple rectangles I have cut out by hand)....
Just a note of caution, you will see in my thread for the passenger pod. Richard spotted an error. I am working from plans, these are 1/2 scale and I forgot to double a dimension. It is the cut out in the end panel for the centre section of the roof.
Good Luck
Julian
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Old 10-11-2014, 02:21 PM   #12
Purple Bob
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Hello Julian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhugger View Post
Feel free to use the CNC code...
Many thanks Julian. Very much appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhugger View Post
I will let everyone have the code for the leg pods (but some of the simple rectangles I have cut out by hand)....
Excellent!!! makes building a lot easier... I may cut them in styrene or plexi rather then MDF. Again Many Thanks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhugger View Post
Just a note of caution, you will see in my thread for the passenger pod. Richard spotted an error. I am working from plans, these are 1/2 scale and I forgot to double a dimension. It is the cut out in the end panel for the centre section of the roof.
I did notice that in your thread, and thanks for reminding me about it. I may try and correct that manually in the G-Code or with a bit of fiddling elsewhere by conversion and import to cad to correct it. Not a big problem.

All in all your help with this build is certainly appreciated.

Best Regards,
Purple Bob.
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Old 03-12-2014, 05:35 PM   #13
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Default 44" Eagle Working Drawings

Thought I'd post an update on the progress to this drawing set...... The 3D layup is coming along slowly but getting there.

This is NOT a CGI Model... in the sense that CGI models posted previously generally suffer from several real world problems. This is an engineering model, where all the individual parts are fully formed.

CGI models usually suffer components simply put in place and frequently pushed through each other for assembly. This model uses complete parts. Where a hole is required for one component to pass through another, the hole is actually there in the 3D Model. All of the fish mouth ends on the tubes are cut and in place... That's why it takes much longer to build than a CGI Model that only has to look right on the outside.

It really is benefiting from the five or more years of research and data gathering. A coupler of bits on here are still just temporary place holders rather than finished parts... but the progress is encouraging.


Best Regards,
Purple Bob.
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Old 04-12-2014, 04:00 AM   #14
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Looking good, can't wait to see more
Thanks Richard..... I'll do my best to update this thread as and when I can.

In the meantime, here's another puzzler:
Tonight I was just watching the Joe 90 Episode... "Most Special Astronaut", when I suddenly spotted a model part that looked familiar. I've pointed an arrow at it in the photograph below.

Looks to me to be distinctly like the Oleo leg parts on the Eagles... maybe the main gear also possibly the ones on the passenger pod feet. If these are indeed the same components on this Joe 90 model, then that would strongly suggest that they were a "found part" rather than a manufactured one. Now all we'd have to do is figure out what the heck it is they found and used. Certainly there are Apollo kit parts in this shot and some of the Gemini kit parts that are on the eagle are there too.

Never seen this part being a "found item" mentioned on any forum or in any document before.. so If anybody has any ideas about this then please do chip in here.



Best Regards,
Purple Bob.
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Old 11-04-2017, 08:43 AM   #15
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Hi Bob,

If you are still out there, COME BACK!

I would love to see where you went with this project, what a great spot with the OLEO struts. My first thought was perhaps they were spares being reused in production, then I remembered that Joe 90 was made a few years before Space: 1999 which maybe adds some weight to the thought that you are right, they could be a found item. I always thought that all the major parts for an Eagle were custom made and I find it very interesting to think maybe more is made from found items well, after the kit parts obviously.

Last edited by Captain Sci-Fi; 11-04-2017 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:07 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Captain Sci-Fi View Post
Hi Bob,
If you are still out there, COME BACK!
I would love to see where you went with this project,
Yeah! Still out here Bernie, somewhere at the outer end of the Galaxy...

We temporarily shelved that software model for commercial reasons related to the sale of the photo measurement algorithm. Which was acquired from us commercially with exclusive rights by a Company in the oil and gas industry, for creating measurable geology models from terrain photographs.

I've just got a new workshop space (for hobby stuff)... and I'm going to be going back to working on the software design model before I build a hardware one. So watch this space....

Yes the Oleo Legs seem to be some sort of spring hinge.... you could get them in the late 60's and early 70's for spring retaining open and shut the lids of bedding boxes or tool boxes etc etc... but these seem to be just a very much smaller version of that.

Best Regards,
Purple Bob.

I'll release the software model publicly when it's in a useful state where people can use it as a 3D plan for building their own models.
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Old 13-04-2017, 07:15 AM   #17
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BOB!!

YAY!!

Love your work and looking forward to seeing more of what you do. Making a little more time for the hobby myself too. During the summer break from school I will clear out my workshop and reorganise, been meaning to do that for a couple of years. Luckily my new job gives me access to some serious lathe and milling equipment, think of a sweetshop and playground combination
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