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Old 20-01-2015, 12:03 AM   #21
Slate Mcleod
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I will stick my neck on the line and say PM me and send me a copy of the "beak" ...I'll give it a go, if it works maybe the rest.
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Old 20-01-2015, 03:11 AM   #22
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I don't want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm, but if you don't like sanding, then I'd stay away from printed parts like these. At my job, we are frequently called upon to clean up printed parts and I can tell you from experience, it's pure drudgery, even more so if there's any detail to have to work around. A highly skilled craftsman, given enough time, can turn them into acceptable parts however. Printed parts are routinely used as masters for limited production resin kits, but if you've purchased one of these, you may have noticed that oftentimes details are soft and uneven at best. Unfortunately, I've noticed that there is currently an infatuation with this technology and it seems to be used for everything, even when a more traditional approach would result in a better part. I could go on, but you get my drift.

Last edited by B.P. Taylor; 20-01-2015 at 06:33 AM.
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Old 20-01-2015, 04:45 PM   #23
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Default Not wishing to rant or pour fuel on anyones fire - honest!

B.P.

True; but in the UK (and elsewhere) Rapid Prototyping (older industrial term for 3d Printing) killed and then went on to save model making. Traditional model making lost to quick / low cost "prints"; but then model making adapted to take on new tech. There are many case studies on this, recently in an industry magazine - Develop 3d.

I ran a model making business (I am a tool/pattern maker; not a model maker - but I employed a few good ones) it would have struggled / wouldn't have grown with out RP/CNC/CAD/CAM etc. etc. The model making business 5 people; the product development business 18 people and a load of investment (100's K), but the rewards were great.

I think it is easy to forget skills are skills - a skilled RP finisher is still a good model maker, but does necessarily need all the traditional skills. A CNC pattern maker is still a pattern maker, but is probably dangerous with a chisel in his/her hand.

As an industrial model making business owner - we had more problems the traditional way; the biggest being ego (maker to designer) and interpretation of the drawing to the 3d shape. The number of hours lost to this curve or that.....the pain!

The best thing about the 3d tech; time saving. Patterns in days rather than weeks; earning potential - high; cost to the customer reduced; Return on Investment (time to market blah blah blah) improved. Many reasons to advocate the use of 3d digital manufacturing.

You are correct; 3d prints make good masters - soft details? Sack the sander and get a better one. 3d prints probably don't make good production tools just yet, but they are being used in places for just that. But not all printers are the same - see pic's (not for the Eagle) printed and washed, not touched with grit - paper or blasted. My printer would struggle to make an 11" Eagle though.

One thing for sure - get ready for sanding; and do not role the edges!


Ps. I have said before here somewhere - if these are ABS, first coat should be a meths based bar coat, seal the surface before using cellulose! It gets in to the structure and melts it from the inside.

Anyway - I sold up and now just tinker. Enjoying it much more, bit of carving, bit of printing, bit of CNC and time on my lathe - happy days.
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Old 20-01-2015, 08:34 PM   #24
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Default Fly this thread to Cuba....!

.....poor Tipam will be thinking he'll never get his thread back. It's interesting to read two differing views from people who obviously know their subject matter. My grandfather built miniature boats, essentially using boatbuilders' techniques, to a very high standard - I wonder what his reaction was when he saw injection moulded plastic kits for the first time (and he built a few of those to incredibly high standards as well). I understand that B P has reservations about printed parts (and please don't think I'm suggesting you're like my Grandad either!), yet Julian offers a different perspective on the same subject.

Printed kits don't really interest me, but I suspect that's partly a generational thing, and partly because I'm happy with styrene kits or whatever "homemade" model I'm building. Still be fascinated to see what Blue Moon makes of the first thirty seven incher.

Tipam, sorry for adding to the debate but couldn't resist it. Keep up the good work,

Kindest regards

Patrick
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Old 20-01-2015, 08:49 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhugger View Post
B.P.

True; but in the UK (and elsewhere) Rapid Prototyping (older industrial term for 3d Printing) killed and then went on to save model making. Traditional model making lost to quick / low cost "prints"; but then model making adapted to take on new tech. There are many case studies on this, recently in an industry magazine - Develop 3d.

I ran a model making business (I am a tool/pattern maker; not a model maker - but I employed a few good ones) it would have struggled / wouldn't have grown with out RP/CNC/CAD/CAM etc. etc. The model making business 5 people; the product development business 18 people and a load of investment (100's K), but the rewards were great.

I think it is easy to forget skills are skills - a skilled RP finisher is still a good model maker, but does necessarily need all the traditional skills. A CNC pattern maker is still a pattern maker, but is probably dangerous with a chisel in his/her hand.

As an industrial model making business owner - we had more problems the traditional way; the biggest being ego (maker to designer) and interpretation of the drawing to the 3d shape. The number of hours lost to this curve or that.....the pain!

The best thing about the 3d tech; time saving. Patterns in days rather than weeks; earning potential - high; cost to the customer reduced; Return on Investment (time to market blah blah blah) improved. Many reasons to advocate the use of 3d digital manufacturing.

You are correct; 3d prints make good masters - soft details? Sack the sander and get a better one. 3d prints probably don't make good production tools just yet, but they are being used in places for just that. But not all printers are the same - see pic's (not for the Eagle) printed and washed, not touched with grit - paper or blasted. My printer would struggle to make an 11" Eagle though.

One thing for sure - get ready for sanding; and do not role the edges!


Ps. I have said before here somewhere - if these are ABS, first coat should be a meths based bar coat, seal the surface before using cellulose! It gets in to the structure and melts it from the inside.

Anyway - I sold up and now just tinker. Enjoying it much more, bit of carving, bit of printing, bit of CNC and time on my lathe - happy days.
... those are nice prints! ... and I appreciate your insights on 3d printing. I am printing in ABS and didn't know about the meths based coat - I'll give it a go.
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Old 20-01-2015, 08:50 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfleming@jbt.co.uk View Post
.....poor Tipam will be thinking he'll never get his thread back. It's interesting to read two differing views from people who obviously know their subject matter. My grandfather built miniature boats, essentially using boatbuilders' techniques, to a very high standard - I wonder what his reaction was when he saw injection moulded plastic kits for the first time (and he built a few of those to incredibly high standards as well). I understand that B P has reservations about printed parts (and please don't think I'm suggesting you're like my Grandad either!), yet Julian offers a different perspective on the same subject.

Printed kits don't really interest me, but I suspect that's partly a generational thing, and partly because I'm happy with styrene kits or whatever "homemade" model I'm building. Still be fascinated to see what Blue Moon makes of the first thirty seven incher.

Tipam, sorry for adding to the debate but couldn't resist it. Keep up the good work,

Kindest regards

Patrick

No worries! I enjoy all the comments and I'm glad it's sparking some debate
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Old 20-01-2015, 09:15 PM   #27
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Nice one Patrick; to damp things a bit more,I essentially agree with BP but see the advantages a bit more - our business did very well out of it. There is a current infatuation in the DIY market, but my printer is producing better parts than my 200k machine did in 1998. I first used SLA RP parts in 1988, I am a young at heart 44 (tomorrow) year old - 88 the second year of my apprenticeship.

The interesting stuff for me is not DIY or industry or the space station printing a wrench. The moon base building by robot printer, yes a bit but the medical and food stuff is good to follow - printing "beef" with lower carbon impact than growing it and printing organs for transplant with out the need for anti-rejection drugs; we might all be glad of that.
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Old 20-01-2015, 09:19 PM   #28
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http://www.transpares.co.uk/Item/Barcoat-Isolator-1L

That's the one we use. Hope it helps. Good luck remember to get some method in to clean the equipment after.
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Old 20-01-2015, 09:42 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhugger View Post
http://www.transpares.co.uk/Item/Barcoat-Isolator-1L

That's the one we use. Hope it helps. Good luck remember to get some method in to clean the equipment after.
... sorry, do you mean this stuff is good for painting on 3D prints?? ... If so, I'll get some. I found the same product for 25 ...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/U-pol-Barc...84646015&rt=nc
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Old 20-01-2015, 09:51 PM   #30
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Method* Meths. Bloody Auto correct, but method fits the above.
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Old 20-01-2015, 09:59 PM   #31
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Before resin based SLA models became affordable we used FDM, essentially the same as your fused filament fabrication and printed with ABS.

Use a couple of light coats, the spirit does not melt the plastic. Once dry the surface is sealed and you can start using cellulose primers safely. It is a yellow colour so you can see when you have rubbed down far enough. Because your structure is porous the cellulose gets inside, it skins over on the outside and never evaporates at the inside; braking down the material. You could always tell; getting a good finish at the end of the day to find build lines the next was a sure sign of trapped solvent - 1/2hr in the vac chamber might help pull it out.
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Old 20-01-2015, 10:28 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard View Post
What a superb project!
I'll say!

You sure got that right!
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Old 20-01-2015, 11:38 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhugger View Post
Before resin based SLA models became affordable we used FDM, essentially the same as your fused filament fabrication and printed with ABS.

Use a couple of light coats, the spirit does not melt the plastic. Once dry the surface is sealed and you can start using cellulose primers safely. It is a yellow colour so you can see when you have rubbed down far enough. Because your structure is porous the cellulose gets inside, it skins over on the outside and never evaporates at the inside; braking down the material. You could always tell; getting a good finish at the end of the day to find build lines the next was a sure sign of trapped solvent - 1/2hr in the vac chamber might help pull it out.
That sounds great - I will give that a go (and ignore the 'meths' method - LOL!)
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Old 20-01-2015, 11:39 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhugger View Post
Before resin based SLA models became affordable we used FDM, essentially the same as your fused filament fabrication and printed with ABS.

Use a couple of light coats, the spirit does not melt the plastic. Once dry the surface is sealed and you can start using cellulose primers safely. It is a yellow colour so you can see when you have rubbed down far enough. Because your structure is porous the cellulose gets inside, it skins over on the outside and never evaporates at the inside; braking down the material. You could always tell; getting a good finish at the end of the day to find build lines the next was a sure sign of trapped solvent - 1/2hr in the vac chamber might help pull it out.
In the UK we have been using acrylics for the last 10 years so dont have those problems but gotta admit I do miss the smell of proper paint shop cellulose I have learned though that acryllics are better, dry faster, and give as good a finish if the prep work is done correctly. It just doesn't smell as nice

Last edited by Slate Mcleod; 20-01-2015 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 21-01-2015, 04:16 PM   #35
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Yes, acrylic paint is more common now. The bar coat does help reduce reaction as well.

I always preferred the smell of polyester filler I have to admit. "love the smell of filler in the morning....smells like victory"
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Last edited by moonhugger; 21-01-2015 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 22-01-2015, 12:28 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhugger View Post
Yes, acrylic paint is more common now. The bar coat does help reduce reaction as well.

I always preferred the smell of polyester filler I have to admit. "love the smell of filler in the morning....smells like victory"
Ah gotta love the old days
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Old 23-01-2015, 08:51 PM   #37
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Nothing personal,but I prefer to have my eagles to be on the 1/48 to
the 1/72 scales for where I want to display them.
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Old 25-01-2015, 01:35 AM   #38
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Default Sanding - wot sanding?!

Just to keep you up-to-date, my 3D printer had a hitch, but now everything is up and running again - just printing the cages, spine and landing pods (pics soon).

Also, for those of you who hate sanding (i.e. everyone) there's a great product out there called XTC-3D ..

http://www.benam.co.uk/products/epoxy/xtc-3d/

Seems a reasonable price (but the postage costs from benam are awful!!)
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Old 28-01-2015, 08:48 PM   #39
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OK, so here's an update of what I've printed so far (see pics)

I've included a comparison of two beaks - one printed with ReplicatorG (open source software that's free) and the other by Simplify3D ($140!)

Simplify3D is simply much better than ReplicatorG in so many ways;

1. Prints at varied speeds and qualities - the shell can be printed at 0.1mm pitch whilst supports and inside structures print at high speed. Results are relatively fast and far more accurate.
2. Automatic supports work really well and are very easy to remove.
3. Preview and options are excellent - I even get cost and time estimates.

Anyway, I hope to get a complete 37" Eagle (minus passenger pod) by the weekend provided all goes well.
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File Type: jpg DSC_0462.jpg (104.2 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0466.jpg (79.9 KB, 47 views)
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File Type: jpg replicatorG.jpg (99.5 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg replicatorGb.jpg (75.7 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg Simplify3D.jpg (86.5 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg Simplify3Db.jpg (61.1 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg sbside.jpg (89.9 KB, 46 views)
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Old 28-01-2015, 10:37 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardlamer View Post
This is really awesome....would be interested to know how much one of these print would come out to.

Have you tested XTC-3D on any parts yet? Would like to see how that works.

HOpe to see more pics
... yes, I'll need to calculate costs and let you know. I'm still waiting for the XTC-3D, so I'll show the results when I've tried it. Meanwhile I'll get the whole thing printed.
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