Space 1999 Eagle Transporter Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • We have updated the Terms and Conditions, you will be prompted to read and agree to these next time you are active on the forum.
SPONSORED BY

New Doctor Who: The Matt Smith Era

Dr who is supposed to be a Sci-Fi show and Not a Soap Opera!!:rant:

Again another dissapointment a few flashy CGI effects can't compensate for a Bad story:cry::rant::no::thumbdown:

Sorry, Alpha One, this just shows the typical ignorance of people who pidgeonhole things. Science Fiction is NOT a Genre, no matter how hard hollywood tells you it is. Good science fiction, proper science fiction, is a setting.

My favourite examples are "Forbidden Planet" and "Silent Running". "Forbidden Planet" is a science fiction re-telling of the classic work of fiction "The Tempest" by Shakespear, the setting is science fiction (SF for short) but the story isn't. "Silent Running" is an ecological disaster movie in a SF setting.

"Doctor Who" is exactly what you say it isn't. It IS a soap opera - just one in a SF setting. It always has been about the relationships the doctor has with his companions, and how they all deal with the uncertainty and danger in their lives that is caused by travelling through time and space. The "Nu Who" more than ever. I do, however, agree with you completely when you say that "a few flashy CGI effects can't compensate for a Bad story", and "Asylum" was indeed a very bad story.

However, Asylum was so full of plot holes and irregularities that I believe it does indeed deserve more to be called "Sci-Fi" than "Science Fiction" or "SF". To clarify, SF is about the human condition, how we interact in different situations, or warning us of dangers we as a species may have to face - "The Day After Tomorrow" being a good illustration of this - whilst "Sci-Fi" is all about robots, ray guns, and spaceships. SF is the best it can be, Sci-Fi is the worst, or at least, the laziest. (In my opinion, obviously, yours may vary).

If the Daleks were so keen on not destroying such "Beauty" before the Doctor went down there, the only reason they could have had to do so once he was down there was because they thought it worth doing to destroy the Doctor - so why did they go through with it once he had been wiped from their memories?

And why did the Doctor allow the only truly human Dalek in existence to be destroyed? A Dalek created from a human who had held on to her humanity - including her compassion, pity, etc. A being able to wipe out the memory of the Doctor from every single Dalek in existence could surely have taught them that the only way to ensure their survival, and prevent the Doctor from eventually wiping them out completely, would be to stop attempting to become the only creatures in existence and let other races live in peace.
 

pjskeldon

Alphans
I have to agree with Conrad Turner above.

If Doctor Who aims itself at any younger audience, I feel it ought to set up camp on the CBBC channel.

The following may contain SPOILERS - you have been warned!!

My criticisms include (but are not limited to):
• The central premise of the ‘asylum’ – Daleks have rarely stopped to repair ‘defective’ Daleks, preferring to simply wipe them out and carry on.

• Daleks being afraid – give me a break. They’ll be discussing holiday destinations and pension schemes next.

• The need for the companions to be there. As someone said earlier, it would have made more sense to have kept one or more of the Ponds as hostages to force the Doctors arm.

• The need for the Tardis to be quite so conveniently parked for a quick getaway.

• Why is Skaro back? Is this from a time before it was destroyed, or is this part of the universal ‘restart’ from ages ago? If so, why bother with any consistency at all?

• No explanation as to why the ‘new paradigm’ Daleks and the old copper-bottoms were now working together. Have they patched up their differences? And who are these two new ‘paradigm’ Daleks? Metallic red and blue – Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition?

• Inconsistencies with this ‘barrier’ – a ship can get through it and obviously Daleks have been sent there before. Why the jitters now – what has changed? Could be the ‘genius Dalek’ I suppose, but I’m clutching at straws here.

• The supposedly loopiest Daleks all seemed to have their exterminators missing. Yes I know suckering to death is an option, but really, they weren’t much cop.

• None of the Daleks on the planet even seemed to be capable of hatching a plan – reduced to simply running after the Doctor, etc. and shouting ‘exterminate’.

• This ‘mindweb’ seems another new invention – surely if the genius Dalek can sense them, they can sense it.

• After the hype about there being so many old-school Daleks involved, the actual programme seemed to feature very few clearly enough to be identified.

• The Special Weapons Dalek seemed to have no part to play at all.

• Why was the ‘genius’ Dalek kept in a completely different room – I can accept that its conversion to a Dalek had failed and perhaps it had mounted too much resistance, but why the special room. The other ‘loons’ on that level seemed to be in pretty basic accommodation.

• The asylum was supposed to have many thousands (millions?) of defective Daleks. The couple of dozen we saw didn’t really instil any danger. CGI could have usefully been used here to really crank up the threat.

• Why did the Dalek High Command suddenly switch so easily from saving nutcase Daleks to wiping them out?

• Not another hyperactive companion with the know-it-all attitude of a lippy teenager! Oh yes and one that is a whizz at technical things. Maybe we’ll discover she could only handle Dalek technology, but I fear another Spock, 7 of 9 or T’Pol who can ‘bypass the EPS grid, invert the tetrion beam and send it through the anti-matter stream via the emitter array’ faster than they can say it.

In short I felt this episode was yet another triumph of hype and presentation over substance. Other (American) SF shows can pack far more plot into 40 minutes – I felt cheated and insulted by this sloppy confection.

Perhaps there were plot points there yet to find resonance in later episodes, but I for one have been disappointed before by Mr Moffat and I’m not in the frame of mind to give him the benefit of the doubt any more.

It seems I’ll be returning to reading SF instead of watching it on Saturday evenings from now on.

Phil.
 
Last edited:

SteveDix

Alphans
I've just seen it, and I enjoyed it. I'd be careful about "plot holes" during the run of a season, because with New Who, plot holes have a way of becoming plot features later on..
 

SteveDix

Alphans
Sorry, Alpha One, this just shows the typical ignorance of people who pidgeonhole things. Science Fiction is NOT a Genre, no matter how hard hollywood tells you it is. Good science fiction, proper science fiction, is a setting.

My favourite examples are "Forbidden Planet"

And I seem to recall certain soaplike elements of Forbidden Planet being about a relationship that ends up being very important to the plot.
 

ChrisofEDF

Alphans
I didn't spot them Chris. I saw them in behind the scenes shots and production pics but failed to see them in the actual episode !

Off the top of my head.

The barallerina was a spinning "Evil of the Dalek's" dalek.

In the same shot the 1st Dalek is on the left.

There are Genisis Daleks mixed in with the NSD's when Rory is poking the Eyestalk.

The renegade dalek cuts in front of the Doctor when he is running back to the Teleport.
 

SteveDix

Alphans
Anyone spot the continuity error?

When Rory is fiddling with the Dalek that wakes up, on one shot, the Dalek is missing a speech light, but on the opposite angle shot, it has the full set.
 

Slate Mcleod

Alphans
I didn't spot them Chris. I saw them in behind the scenes shots and production pics but failed to see them in the actual episode !

Watched it again last night...spotted a few more Daleks from the original series thanks to Chris's post, but blink and you would have missed them. A great shame the producers didn't take more of an opportunity to incorporate them into the story.
 

PeteQ

Alphans
Sorry, Alpha One, this just shows the typical ignorance of people who pidgeonhole things. Science Fiction is NOT a Genre, no matter how hard hollywood tells you it is. Good science fiction, proper science fiction, is a setting.

My favourite examples are "Forbidden Planet" and "Silent Running". "Forbidden Planet" is a science fiction re-telling of the classic work of fiction "The Tempest" by Shakespear, the setting is science fiction (SF for short) but the story isn't.

Hmmm. Putting my English Lit hat on for a moment, one could argue that The Tempest is a science fiction story.

Prospero is a magician who is exiled (along with his daughter, Miranda) to an island by his brother. This means that Miranda has grown up on the island without human company. Her friends are Caliban and Ariel (a sprite or fairy), whilst Caliban's mother is a witch known as the Sycorax. There is a ship wreck which brings Captain Ferdinand and his crew to the island. However, it becomes apparent that the storm which stranded the ship was not entirely arbitrary and that Ferdinand is the perfect match for Miranda. Prospero agrees to let Miranda marry Ferdinand and decides to leave his exile. This restores "magic" to the world. However, Ferdinand can see that Prospero's "magic" is really science or alcehical knowledge, which would be a great boon to humanity.

The Tempest also contains the line "O Brave New World that has such people in it," which is spoken by Miranda - excited at the thought she will leave the island, which is also a signifier of her leaving childhood fantasy behind.

In fact, The Tempest would seem to be the prototypical SF story. Think of any SF, and you can link it back to The Tempst. Doctor Who is a kind of Prospero.

Indeed, (haven't got much space here to discuss) but if you look at the S:1999 episode "Missing Link" it makes allusion to the many popular takes on The Tempst. :)
 

SteveDix

Alphans
In fact, The Tempest would seem to be the prototypical SF story.

"Forbidden Planet" was a conscious translation of "The Tempest" to Science fiction. The musical "Return to Forbidden Planet" makes this more apparent by adopting the original names.

Morbius = Prospero
Ariel = Robbie The Robot
etc.
 
Hmmm. Putting my English Lit hat on for a moment, one could argue that The Tempest is a science fiction story.

Prospero is a magician who is exiled (along with his daughter, Miranda) to an island by his brother. This means that Miranda has grown up on the island without human company. Her friends are Caliban and Ariel (a sprite or fairy), whilst Caliban's mother is a witch known as the Sycorax. Prospero agrees to let Miranda marry Ferdinand and decides to leave his exile. This restores "magic" to the world. However, Ferdinand can see that Prospero's "magic" is really science or alcehical knowledge, which would be a great boon to humanity.

The Tempest also contains the line "O Brave New World that has such people in it," which is spoken by Miranda - excited at the thought she will leave the island, which is also a signifier of her leaving childhood fantasy behind.

Agreed with the exception that references to sprites (or faries), and witches tend to show the original story for what it is - fantasy. Your observation about the 'magic' actually being alchemy is well made as that is indeed a science and one that is used today. Personally, I would still argue that "Fantasy", like "Science Fiction", is more a description of the setting rather than a Genre, and that the base story, either of "The Tempest" or "Forbidden Planet" is actually a drama. It (the base story) is something that would have been at home on the stage at the height of the Roman empire, with just minor modifications to make it understandable and something that the audience can empathize with.

Which was, after all, my original point. There is no such thing as a "Science Fiction" story. You wouldn't call the recent Robert downey Jr. "Sherlock Holmes" films "London" films as this is just the setting for the film. It would be more accurate and informative to say they were "Historically based Action" films. No matter the story, you can still tell the same story in another setting.

Take "Blake's 7", a 'cult' "Science Fiction" story which you could tell exactly the same stories but re-name the characters and places, turn Zen and Orac into avatars of the gods, and you have an action-drama set in Roman times about some escaped slaves. "Science Fiction" cannot define the story, only the setting.

And as to "The Tempest" being a prototypical story, well obviously. Things written now are influenced by those written in the past. They can be inspired by them, or even directly quoted by them, and the books written now will influence those still to be written in the same manner. The main thing to remember is that copying a single work is plagiarism, copying many is research!

:lol: :D :D:
 

PeteQ

Alphans
Conrad,

I very much agree with you. For example, go into any branch of Waterstones and there are books called Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, or Android Keranina (as a play on Anna Keranina), etc. I'm not saying that they're any good, but merely that Gothic fiction was in the nineteenth century what Science Fiction is now. So, where Gothic explored the idea of sinning against nature, Science Fiction explores the consequences of abusing science in a similar way.

"The main thing to remember is that copying a single work is plagiarism, copying many is research!"

Indeed, and to bring this back on topic I noticed that the Doctor's line "Where did you get the milk?" paraphrases a key line spoken by Number Six in The Prisoner ep "Dance of the Dead". Here he says: "Where does it come from? How does it get here? The milk, the ice cream..." Yes, it's very subtle, but when Number Six says the line it has more conviction - it illuminates that the people in The Village are living a fantasy, and that fantasy ultimately has no substance.

"Asylum of the Daleks" tries to do something similar, but I think the premise of a "Dalek lunatic asylum" was rather off. In the past Daleks tended to exterminate inferior Daleks. Is it "Planet of the Daleks" where one of the Daleks says "Failure will not be tolerated" and exterminates another Dalek? Likewise, the "God of All Daleks" comments upon racial purity and how "one cell in a billion is fit to bear the name, Dalek!"

Visually, I thought the Skaro scenes and the "spot which era" Daleks were good. Strikes me that it was a story idea raised in the boardroom which got green-lighted, rather than it was a specially-commissioned story. Oh well.
 

SteveDix

Alphans
Indeed, and to bring this back on topic I noticed that the Doctor's line "Where did you get the milk?" paraphrases a key line spoken by Number Six in The Prisoner ep "Dance of the Dead". Here he says: "Where does it come from? How does it get here? The milk, the ice cream..."

I love "Dance of The Dead", particularly the scene on the beach, which is a neat flip-about of the above, with No.2 claiming that any life outside the village is a fantasy. Thinking about it, "Asylum of the Daleks" also has some resonance with the final unmasking of No.1 in "Fall Out"...

--== SPOILER ==--

Having thought a bit about the episode, I don't think it was made clear enough that the reason the Daleks want to destroy the asylum is the fact that Oswin is considered to be the maddest of mad Daleks - one capable of all the things they are incapable of.

And she has nice legs. Which probably made them jealous.
 
Last edited:
Yes, in the past Daleks have killed Daleks, not least of which when in the new series the new 'palitoy' Daleks exterminated the older copper coloured ones. However, that does not explain why the Doctor allowed Oswin to be destroyed along with the planet. However much the other Daleks wanted to destroy her, the Doctor should have wanted to save her more - the enemy of my enemy.......

Plus having an ally that can tap into Dalek databases would be immensely useful to the Doctor.

But if the Daleks truly wanted to get rid of the doctor once and for all - especially given their presumed fear of Oswin, why did they give him a functioning wrist band? Give hime one that actively attracts the nanite cloud and, if the whole "Subtracts love" thing is in anyway correct, coupled with the statement that the Daleks may not have been able to kill the Doctor because of his hatred for them, then he should have been easier to turn into a Dalek than Oswin. Possibly he'd make a better Dalek than Oswin as he has more hate in him in the first place.
 

Doomsday

Alphans
There was a Dalek civil war as well don't forget.
Plenty of killing going on there.
When Oswin becomes the new companion at Christmas time will that mean the Daleks will remember the Doctor again?
Or will he rescue her before the explosion and have a Dalek companion?...:think:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/49602360@N00/
 
Hooo boy!

This season should be in the funny farm. Dalek (coalition) parliaments, we can do better than "Snakes on a Plane", we'll do ... we'll do ..... "Dinosaurs on a Spaceship", yes, thats cooler in every way, dinosaurs are cooler than snakes, spaceships are cooler than planes, that'll work! And now, cyborg outlaws in the wild west?

I don't know which is the biggest 'Fanboi's' dream.

And I don't know whether to hope they bring back some of the classic adversaries like the martians (Ice Warriors) or hope they leave them alone. The protrayal of The Master has been laughable, the Cybermen are weaker than they were, the Daleks are just stupid, and all of a sudden, the Silence has been forgotten. Such a big deal last season, no sign this.

Come on, bring back the stories we could get our teeth into!

(And yes, I freely admit that 'classic' who had the most pointless cliffhanger of all time. the reveal at the end of episode 1 / start of episode 2 of "Planet of the Daleks" was ... Dun Dun Dah! A Dalek was on the Planet!)

But this season surpasses even my suspension of disbelief. The doctor is supposed to be a 900+ year old (who lies about his age) and should have the intelligence to match. Unfortunately it seems to me that the show has forgotten a basic fact that the classic series never did. The audience has intelligence too!
 

Captain Sci-Fi

Commander
Staff member
Hmmmmm, I didn't like the Wild West episode.

One episode won't bring down a series as worthy as Dr Who and that is the crux of the thing, the show is strong enough to carry the odd whoopsie. My 11 year old still loved it, he felt the story more than hung on every line of script. I can be patient and wait for the next episode still full of anticipation and hopeful it will be better than this one.

Saturday cometh... :D
 

SteveDix

Alphans
It was an interesting idea - the conscience of a weapons-maker. It didn't really follow through, though. Perhaps it was a bit too clever for it's own good.
 
Well, I thought last weeks episode about the cubeist invasion was the best this year by far.

A good look at the effect being a companion has on their lives, the fact that they will age faster than the people around them or dissapear for months at a time without getting older.

The actual invasion took a bit of a back seat for me, but was well thought out nevertheless. The fact that these cubes resisted all our attempts to analyse them and just sat inert for months until they were completely ignored by us, only to then be activated and programmed to kill anyone near enough - and they were spread all over the placec in bins, cupboards and the like so there was no way they could all be removed in time.

The only thing I didn't like was the fact that they were preparing to send down a second wave. I didn't understand the need for a second wave, anyone going near someone struck down would also have to get within range and would be targetted. Or did they think that anyone who had not been affected by the initial wave would be stupid enough to go near one from the second wave? (Possibly they could target the second wave to land close enough to anyone still alive and therefore finish of the population without any chance of missing anyone.)
 
And so the Matt Smith Era draws to a close.

Just as it was getting damn well interesting!

I have been glued to the TV this season like no other since ...... well, since Sylvester McCoy really. I really liked the darkness that was being injected into the series, the doctor getting his teeth into the mystery of "The Impossible Girl". This was what Dr Who should be about, the realisation that no matter how much you have watched in the past, you still don't actually know who or what the doctor is, exactly.

The nods to the classic series were most welcome, and at last seemed to draw the two series together in a way that was missing previously. we've had some right clangers of casting - John Simm as the Master springs to mind - and then they go and pull John Hurt out of the hat as the Doctor (Although is sounds more like he is playing the Valeyard, to me).

This is so looking to be a great 50th Anniversary for Doctor Who.
 
Top